****************************************************************************** * * * IRC Chat with ProBoard Author * * Philippe Leybaert * * * * * August 7th 1998 * * * ****************************************************************************** Session Start: Fri Aug 07 13:25:01 1998 *** Now talking in #proboard .-------------------------------------------------------. | Topic: The OFFICIAL ProBoard IRC Support Channel | | SetBy: Scanner Tue, Feb 03 1998 at 12:42pm | '-------------------------------------------------------' #Proboard created on Tue Aug 04 15:21:22 N> JOIN: Philippe (~philippe@pool09-194-7-245-66.uunet.be) [#Proboard] hi Philippe! Hi Philippe! cricetus: I have thought of something to pay Philippe but not hand out any dime from our side: if ProBoard would remain shareware, we could give Philippe a certain percentage of the sales until we have paid him. .. Well... Philippe what do you think? Oops apa: I could agree to that. Just one thing: this is the first time I'm on today Philippe may we call you Phil for short? lol So Philippe, please tell us what you would like to see happen with ProBoard and it's future development. hmmm... I haven' prepared a speech or anything :-) Ok, since I don't really know 100% how I want to do everything, maybe you can ask some specific questions? Phil: Just tell us if you want to make big money with the PB source or if you want to keep PB alive? Philippe: I have prepared a suggestion, taking into account what has been going on this last week, for the further development. It is all in a textfile at http://freeusers.digibel.be/~ghemberg/txtfiles/pbfuture.txt I don't intend to make money on it, I just don't want to lose any. Philippe: Would you ever consider releasing ProBoard under the GPL. Philippe: Do you plan on distrubting the source to a group of people, an indviudal, or making it public domain Philippe: did you read the email regarding Branislav being intrested in taking over it's development, along with a team of willing pb programmers to assist him? I did, but does he have the time? Philippe: Can you tell us about your vision of PBs future? Well. You probably have one. *grin* wow that was alot of questions. might i make a suggestions. whomever wishes to speak should say 'permission to speak' and whoever Phillipe wants to speak can say 'Go ahead ' Philippe: did you receive my email concerning DOS and OS/2 development Should it go on, should it die, do you want to have still monetary part on it? N> The time is now 2:00pm. Philippe: he can only work on it during weekends, but he is a very fast coder, and with some additional assistance by other programmers i think he can get a lot accomplished. I do OK I do too Phil: Did you receive my email a few days ago (about UltimateBoard) Jobbert: yes I agree with that PERMISSION TO SPEAK, can we introduce that? :) OK permission to speak please.. Phil: What do you think about it? just a sec Ok, hold on, long sentences coming :-) I would still like to be involved with the development, but I'd like to have the "work" done by someone else I don't want to make any more money of it Are you willing to let it becomme freeware? Philippe, so you would be prepared to turn ProBoard freeware? Philippe: I would advise a team... Have you had a chance to look at the textfile I posted you the URL from yet? I would be prepared to do that that sounds great OK is it ok for me to speak now ? Ok... Phil, would you be willing to make PB free (release a keygenerator for all those who want ) yes If so, would you be willing to also release the source under the GPL so people can participate in the development? I have volunteered via e-mail to take over DOS and OS/2 text mode development. No, I don't want to do that, sorry. It will get "messy" that way *** apa sets mode: -v Tom_Torfs Philippe: Do you agree with the keygenerator though? If it is freeware, you won't need a key generator of course Yes, but since the 2.16 release requires a key Would you be willing to release a keygenerator for the current 2.16 release? No, it would be unfair to the people who already registered tB: Sounds to me like a crazy thing... People would not like that... I agree with Philippe on that. What about the idea, that programmers put themselves together (like the PHP or APACHE team) and do work on the new, enhanced version of PB (which lacks maybe of some "secret" code you did for it) This PB would be open sourced kinda Mozilla i.e. one free Version and one which must be registered. Cricetus' question: What about the idea, that programmers put themselves together (like the PHP or APACHE team) and do work on the new, enhanced version of PB (which lacks maybe You would be paid a flat fee of some "secret" code you did for it) and then per sold unit. What about the idea, that programmers put themselves together (like the PHP or APACHE team) and do work on the new, enhanced version of PB (which lacks maybe of some "secret" code you did for it) This PB would be open sourced kinda Mozilla i.e. one free Version and one which must be registered. You would be paid a flat fee and then per sold unit. so philippe, it sounds like to want to still be involved in proboard, but allow other programmers to do all the coding, and you are willing to make future versions free. is this all correct? What do you think about this proposal? I'm not interested in getting paid for it I just don't want to lose any more money, because that's what's happening now What Philippe is wanting to do is just like what was setup with RBBS and to this day has worked great. As long as Philippe has control of final say on the released code and program Philippe: do you want to appoint specific programmers to handle the development, or what? something like that phil: why not (releasing under the GPL), you could manage the versions and merge the fixes as does Linus with the Linux Kernel? And why are are you "losing money at the moment"? The website (www.proboard.com) for example okay, i understand, and why not GPL? Philippe: you can have a website and domain name hosted for as little as $6 a month these days. I just don't like it. Is that a good reason? :-) 1) If you are going to be distributing it to a team, what will the requiremnts for joining the team be? 2) The two-bbs system idea sounds more like crippleware and not freeware. What other systems are doing (well thinking of doing) is having a team work on the source and IF YOU STILL WANT TO CHARGE simply charge for the source code and not to unlock this cripple. Philippe - What if we were to offer a "support team" that handles releases, information, a "user registry" etc.... we'd interface with the "code team" and check with you before any "official" releases go out the door.... is that a good idea? Dmurphy: Iniquity does the same thing so far its been working ok Except ofr the offical thing And who will build the release? I'd suggest Branislav the code team would do so... those who you feel are fit to be working on the code... people such as frank and myself would be on the "support team" and we'd be the "first line of defense" :) Philippe: perhaps you should put one programmer in charge of the programming team, and he will build the releases? I would be willing to port the DOS version (2.16) to OS/2 32-bit text mode and continue development of the DOS and OS/2 versions. Tom: we can talk about that Would you be willing to license the 2.16 source code to that purpose for free ? 2.16 is a sensitive issue, because so many people payed for it OK, how about an earlier version , then ? That doesn't make any difference But the people who paid for it would gain more if the development continued, then if it stopped, wouldn't they ? Yes, but new users will get it for free, while "older" will have payed for it But isn't that a price worth paying to keep PB alive ? (I myself payed for it too, and have no problem with that) I don't have a problem with it, but will they? (the users) What would you suggest otherwise ? I would turn the 2.16 page and "forget" about it. I mean: leave it like it is But that would probably mean that there would never be an OS/2 version. Says who? 3.0? Who is going to invest all the effort in building a GUI OS/2 program etc ? you I don't know anything about GUI program; I'm good at text mode programming though That's why I suggested to port the text version of PB. It's not that hard. I had to learn it too Not all people are that much into GUI as far as BBSing is concerned anyway here's the thing though --whomever the "code team" becomes is going to need to base 3.0 off of the 2.16 code (I'm assuming).... now, if 3.0 is a derivative work of 2.16, and 3.0 is free, why not make 2.16 free? I would agree with that view also. The existing users, remember? better yet, make 2.17 free Philippe: I understand that PB is still your product, and I understand what you feel about it. I can understand the problem with 2.16 since so many people paid for it, but I cannot see what your current position to all those proposals is. What is your opinion, what is the thing you want to do with PB? (imho no one has something against a "free" 3.0 of PB in about six months, even those users who paid for 2.x) A free 3.0 is better than no 3.0 =) Exactly Let's only talk about 3.0 okay So - what's your idea of 3.0, and how it will happen. :) I haven't made up my mind yet about 2.16 2.16 is not important the future is philippe -- how much code is there for 3.0? Any kind of an estimate? I wouldn't mind coordinating the development, but the "hard work" is taking too much of my time Philippe: who would be in charge of the 3.0 source code? you or some of the main programmers? (Sorry that this is a little old in the conversation- you were disconnected when I asked first) 1) If you are going to be distributing it to a team, what will the requiremnts for joining the team be? 2) The two-bbs system idea sounds more like crippleware and not freeware. What other systems are doing (well thinking of doing) is having a team work on the source and IF YOU STILL WANT TO CHARGE simply charge for the source code and not to unloc is there any estimate as to how much code is ready or none at all? :) the last word was: unloc... Diadem: please restate your question... N> The time is now 2:30pm. Philippe between me and I know several other users in here with full time connections to the net and runing there own full time httpd, ftpd news mail etc i am sure we could host proboard.com so where where you could get to it and have control over it, and also somewhere that did not cost you money!! I will shortly have a machine on a dual t3 servver that would be great for that. I currently have 3 web servers and irc hook here and a hrm, this remark was about the subject 5 minutes ago, but then again, here we go :) I think 2.16 is important, because it's here, and 3.0 isn't. You just said that 2.16 would be a problem because so many people paid for it. But they actually have a solid product that they have used for a while. Plus that the bbs market has changed dramatically since 1996 or something, so they still value for money. BBS's are almost wiped away from the earth. Don't you think the people who bought 2.xx should be supported with future updates and additions, and don't you feel the 3.0 version should then be a lot more sensitive because people have paid for it and have never even received a final product, and don't you think it is important for the people who bought 2.xx to be guaranteed of future updates? That's why I only want to discuss 3.0 2.16 is off-topic as far as I am concerned ah, okay. Only this: I will release a Y2K fix for 2.16 Phillipe: But what will people, especially the ones that registered the lastest version, think, if you do not release the code and PB will be completely discontinued? And you say "Let's only talk about 3.0": You must release (at least... ... to a group of some coders the current code! Difficult question True... Had to cope with it myself today :-) I will not release the complete 2.16 source code I think you have to think about what you REALLY want Just the parts that can be used in 3.0 i'll be back in a few -- need to go do some work :) and then, should people start pb from sratch?? that doesnt work either .... Should there less features in 3.0 then in current? no Philippe: Branislav said he wanted to continue only if you gave away the sources free of charge. I think he meant the full source... But for v3.0; would you give it away entirely? About 3.0 then: do all the utilities etc. have to be GUI ? E.g. PBUTIL etc. seems like a perfect candidate for a console program ? Console will work Ok, I could do that. (for windows, os/2 and dos if necessary) Listen for one second About PEXes: .. Has the telent deamon with in the proborad code been finished. proboard Yes. Telnet is 99% finished It works Great!! Philippe: What do you think concret of the idea of a ProBoard successor? (e.g. UBoard; regd 3.0 Users for free - no more probs for you!) Can I have everyone's attention please? no questions please One thing about the PEX interface: I will NOT make the technology public It is pretty advanced, and since it is only applicable to DOS, there's no sense in making it public (since I don't really want to) I will, however, make the go ahead Well, that's about it :-) any comments? Philippe: What do you think concret of the idea of a ProBoard successor? (e.g. UBoard; regd 3.0 Users for free - no more probs for you!) N> MODE: Philippe sets mode: +o C_Spiess [#Proboard] I don't understand Did you yet take view on UltimateBoard? Oliver: What is Ultimate Board??? Did you not receive E-Mail of robert@ultimate-systems.com UltimateBoard is a BBS-Program like ProBoard Nope... Not that I am aware of. How much of the PB 3.0 code is finished now? *** C_Spiess sets mode: -oooo ProBot apa DMurphy Frank_pbi *** C_Spiess sets mode: -v Diadem hmm *** C_Spiess sets mode: -v Olivier philippe: SUCK MY D!#K !!!!!!!!!!!!! PROBOARD SUCKS !!!!!! F#CK YOU ALL !!!!! N> MODE: C_Spiess sets mode: +i [#Proboard] there goes the channel f#$k proboard! f#$k it! whats your problem? everyone join proboard2 join #proboard2 and leave this one join #proboard2 and leave this one join #proboard2 and leave this one join #proboard2 and leave this one join #proboard2 and leave this one Session Close: Fri Aug 07 14:51:30 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here we switch to #PROBOARD2 due to a channel takeover --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Session Start: Fri Aug 07 14:50:26 1998 *** Now talking in #proboard2 Okay, do i need to repeat my question to philippe? yes pls Philippe, I am quite disappointed of the whole thing here. It seems to me that you're only in search for a couple of cheap programmers without giving them real co-control over the project. Sorry, if that sounds rude, but that's the impression I have. I am dissappointed about a 3.0 which didn't show up. I left FTN more than half a year ago, and still the situation hasn't changed. cricetus: well said! sarah: you're not the one to talk SarahP: Do you agree with me? yes I do Phil: Do I understand you right, that there will be no PEX SUPPORT in 3.0 ? This sounds really strage to me as PEX is one of PROBOARDS major features Ok, there were times we didn't :) phil: why cannot it be compatible? so many former PEX Creators lost sources or don't release new versions because they arent interested anymore are we switching channels again? Apa doesn't want to join this channel tell him philippe is here well op him ok phil: why cannot it be compatible? so many former PEX Creators lost sources or don't release new versions because they arent interested anymore Session Close: Fri Aug 07 14:57:17 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here we switch back to the original #PROBOARD channel --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Session Start: Fri Aug 07 14:57:23 1998 *** Now talking in #proboard .-------------------------------------------------------. | Topic: The OFFICIAL ProBoard IRC Support Channel | | SetBy: Scanner Tue, Feb 03 1998 at 12:42pm | '-------------------------------------------------------' ONE channel please ! NightTime wonders... Has there already been discussion on who is going to continue the source? can i ask you something philippe? sure thanks... Hey Philippe first of all, will you be willing to hand over the entire 3.0 source code to the new developer(s) or will that stay in your control? I will hand over the complete source Phillipe: what is the current state of the source? thats good to hear.. okay, secondly, i heard you mention that you would not release the pex source.. does that mean that proboard 3.0 will not include the pex support? yes, but 32 bit PEXes will be totally different from DOS PEXes So, one has nothing to do with the other What areas of the code are finished, and what needs work? You said telnet is 99% finished (still no DOS door support right)? What about the 32-bit PEX support? is it almost done? what areas of the code still need work? The "technology" is ready, but not implemented in code yet (PEXes is what I'm talking about) OK, about this PEX interface: I could reproduce it because I reverse-engineered it and know the details of the interface. That way future DOS versions could still support PEXes without you having to give away your interface code. telnet is 100% done, except for the door support Philippe: How long will it take before the door support is complete? phillipe: did you plan to allow telnet to support doors eventually? Tom: if you can do that, ok pcMike: I planned it, but it is very difficult However, it would be a lot easier if I had at least *some* DOS source code to start from, rather than build an entire new ProBoard ... will it be possible to support doors at all using the current telnet implimintation, or would the telnet need to be redesigned from scratch (using fossil compatibility)? You cant, that is built into the bot.... I don't want to discuss 2.16, and that's final (maybe at another time) pcMike: it can be reused Philippe: great! ok thats all the questions i have for now. thanks a lot.. i have to go now but i will be loging the rest. bye! bye pcmike! bye! bye bye mikie Are there any definitive data structures for 3.0 yet ? That way I could start on PBUTIL and/or PROCFG with a head start... L8tr Mike Ok... heheheh the question i asked about an hour ago-.... (ok its kinda OLLLDDD) will the source of proboard goto a team or an indivudal? What will be the requirements to join the team if it is given to one? Are any datat structures for 3.0 known yet ? That way I could start on PBUTIL and maybe also PROCFG... Philippe, did you read my question? They're basically 2.16 -compatible Will they change in the future? I mean: is that planned? Ah, OK. And will the utilities need to be rebuilt from scratch or will you provide (part of) the source code ? I will provide full source code for PBUTIL Diadem: you're on! (I think this question is CURSED or something but here it goes.. again) Will the source be going to a team or an indivudal? What will the requirements to join the team be if there is one? Also, will you be selling the source or giving it away? I will probably give it away to ONE person, who will be in charge of recruiting other developers N> JOIN: comatose (i@208.130.15.10) [#proboard] OK, is this about PBUTIL settled then ? You provide me with the source code and I port it to Win32 and OS/2 console programs ? I never said I would give YOU the full source code. Do you intend to make it public then ? Tom: Earlier I said: we can talk about that OK, do you want to do that via email afterwards, perhaps ? Sure Ok my address is tomtorfs@village.uunet.be ok Yours is still philippe@proboard.com ? yep Philippe - What if we were to offer a "support team" that handles releases, +information, a "user registry" etc.... we'd interface with the "code team" +and check with you before any "official" releases go out the door. is that +a good idea? ok then, that's settled I still cannot understand why Phillipe simply doesn't release the source. BBS scene is almost dead... And that is a fact. Nobody will kill him for that.... (and maybe less people as expected will do somethin with the code). Of course I understand... :-) ... that it is your code.... but you should really think about the future of PB Hehe... Philippe: ? Thank you for everything in these past years. We really appreciate the great product we've had, and I for one will never regret using ProBoard. However, without Internet-accessibility, for me, the BBS is dead. I appreciate you coming here, helping us our, hearing us, and looking for a developer. I just wish you the best of luck in your personal endeavours and well, thanks! Thank you Dennis I just wanted to make sure _someone_ says thanks so it doesn't look like the pack of wolves is hunting for you. :-) It has to move in a different direction I think This will take a huge effort, and I simply don't have the time anymore I understand that entirely... I just hope that we can get someone who DOES have the time and get a coordinated effort going..... I have a few ideas as to how organization should be... OK, I have no more questions. Philippe: I will be contacting you via e-mail about the PBUTIL source code. Bye, everyone! Hold changing question (Talking to iniquity author who went through what you are going through right now...) bye Philippe: I'll continue to support you & ProBoard till there isn't anymore! - ProBoard Rules!!!:-))) Long Live ProBoard!!!! Philippe: meanwhile, maybe you can check out what I've prepared at: http://freeusers.digibel.be/~ghemberg/txtfiles/pbfuture.txt It seems there are many observers, but few participants yes :-) 'k... i yield my voice to comatose- the author of iniquity Philippe: everyone was hunger for new NEWS - they just wait to hear from you! :-) Here's part of what I envision happening with ProBoard: I'm just collecting suggestions here... a) The Code Team -- this is the person (or people) who are developing ProBoard.... such as Tom Torfs, Branislav (maybe), etc.... they do the development work -- the "hard stuff" N> The time is now 3:30pm. b) The Support Team -- these are people like Frank Robbins, Mike Ehlert, Art Stark, Gilles Hemburg, myself, etc. who handle user questions, keep track of who's using ProBoard, write documentation, answer questions, etc.... and c) The Advisory Board -- that would be yourself. The easy way to keep your hand in PB development. Phillipe: I think that everyone showed up today to basically find out when and if PB 3.0 will become a reality. It promises alot that alot of people have been asking for. We really just wanted to know what was going on. as for the website that you're losing money on.... if you can get the DNS entry transferred to say Mike or Frank or myself, we all have Websites hosted on fast servers... I don't know about the other guys, but adding virtual hosts for me is easy. :) Telnetability is a big plus for alot of us hi people =) nobody calls regular bbs's anymore, but with a presence on the web, bbs'ing is alive again what happens to bbs is entirly up to us which could rekindle the interest to call up your local bbs and see what they have to offer we can make them evolve or we can stop and let them die Dennis, please resend your remarks... as for the website that you're losing money on.... if you can get the DNS +entry transferred to say Mike or Frank or myself, we all have Websites hosted +on fast servers... I don't know about the other guys, but adding virtual +hosts for me is easy. :) -- do you need the one about the "team concept" also? yes please sure.... here goes: philippe: do you have no time to code pcb or little time . comatose: little time er proB hehe =) can i make a suggestion.. Dennis: you have a point. Dennis: We'll have to talk about that sure... you can email me anytime: dmurphy@pegasus.montclair.edu phil: just have a coding team that does most of the dirty coding work and have them send you there changes.. then do the final builds that way.. you always have the latest and no one else has 100% of the code I think that if we break up the tasks into groups, things will be very efficient... there are lots of people willing to help -- so if we all have our own piece of the puzzle, it won't overwhelm anyone... finding people commited is prob the most important comatose: this is one of the options I'm considering caz there are lots of good coders, but 90% of them never finish what they start like me.. i suck but i never stop till i reach my goal but I think we _have_ that group already -- there's a staunch ProBoard following... we have a great "unofficial" support group, and if we make them official, I can only imagine what we'll get! N> QUIT: Wolfgang (root@pcsun.td.op.dlr.de [never finish: that's what PL and this discussion did. bye. i'm disappointed] The support part is the easiest part... I wish I could offer my services on coding, but I'm a Pascal guy..... Sorry! :( if your commited you can learn fast so being a pro at C isnt a complete must I don't have the time to learn a new language -- I'm too busy with school right now (only 1 1/2 more years till I get my BS) 1) Phil, did you ever say "Thank you" to Sarah and her sister for the wonderful, long lasting support for the PB community? 2) The whole event this evening sucked. You seem to have no idea what you want actually. The whole story repeats. If you continue this way PB will fully die, the turnaround must come, the sooner the better. -- That's all what I've to say for this evening. Just another thing: I would be willing to pay one thousand dollars (1000$) f you dont have to learn C, you just need to learn probard code =) registered users. 1000$ seem to be fair. 1000$ for what? ProBoard. And its future. 1000$ for what? For Proboard. For a open sourced one. But you don't know what I already have finished on 3.0 Bevore there could be a deal, there must be the possibility to have a look onto the source code. I'll keep it in mind But I am seriously interested. I didn't say you weren't. But we have to talk about it first okay, sure. I will talk with people, too I would like to call it a day... It's getting late here.... Same here -- I need to get home and get some sleep...... Philippe: i agree with comatose. we can make the bbs, or we can break it not alot of people are willing to pay for software anymore. If you like, I'll join another session tomorrow or later thus leads me to asking you before, will you make v3.0 free? for $1000 bucks i better get a free sports watch phil: like i said.. centralize the main source and give out older sources to team members the more they do and more trust you get, the newer code they get to work with thats what i do with iniquity Dennis: yes and it works ok Philippe - so long - good that u could make it... comatose: I believe you, but you can't expect me to make a decision about this in a one hour IRC session.... I really have to go now. heh ok bye bye phil bye well in the mean time find one person you can trust, even if he cant code I will bye N> PART: Philippe (~philippe@pool09-194-7-245-41.uunet.be) [#proboard] well im going back to #iniquity on efnet ;p If you all query me with your questions, I will put them in a textfile and ask them tomorrow!